What They Don't Tell You About Narcissists With Mark Vicente

Firerose's amazing guest on this episode of No One Asked Her is award-winning filmmaker, author, and cult survivor Mark Vicente. His work includes the groundbreaking film What the Bleep Do We Know!?, acclaimed HBO documentary series The Vow, which chronicles his courageous journey out of the NXIVM cult, and his bone-chillingly brilliant latest film, Narcissist’s Playbook.

In this incredible conversation, Firerose and Mark dive deep into unveiling psychopathy and narcissistic personality disorder, exposing how these abusers manipulate, deceive, and control.

Together, they unpack the psychological tactics and hidden patterns of abuse, revealing how the dark triad, coercive control, cult dynamics, and trauma intersect. They trace the unmistakable patterns of abuse used by all narcissists to gain supply and the lasting impact it has on survivors.

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Transcript

Intro

SPEAKER_00 0:07

Hey,

Where It Begins

SPEAKER_00 0:08

I'm Viros, and this is No One Ask Her, where we speak the truth anyway. Today I'm very grateful to be joined by my extraordinary guest, Mark Vicente. He's a cult survivor, a whistleblower, and the director of Narcissist Playbook, a new bone-chillingly brilliant documentary exposing the horror of narcissistic abuse. Mark, welcome to the book.

SPEAKER_06 0:31

Bone-chillingly.

SPEAKER_00 0:34

Welcome to the show, Mark. It is bone-chillingly brilliant. Truly.

SPEAKER_04 0:38

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 0:39

I am so grateful that you have created this film because it is the perfect time culturally right now for this phenomenon that has affected so many people's lives and unfortunately destroyed so many people's lives. And you have made this documentary that I mean, it is bone chilling because narcissistic abuse is one of the most misunderstood and devastating things, I think, culturally right now that we're dealing with. And it's it's so misunderstood by the average person who just doesn't understand that this almost hidden invisible abuse can completely decimate somebody's will to live and their entire reality. And it because it's invisible, essentially, it's like something that is just

Narcissist's Playbook

SPEAKER_00 1:30

really hard for the common person to understand unless they've been through it. And unfortunately, then the entire world of survivors that exist, you know, we need this play, we need the playbook of the playbook. So I just love to hear about like how you're you're a brilliant director and filmmaker. How did you get inspired to make this specific film? And why now?

SPEAKER_06 1:51

Yeah. So my wife inspired me actually. So coming out of the uh Nixon cult, you know, that whole story, it was my wife that actually woke me up. Like she started putting like movies and documentaries and like articles and you know in front of me. And at one point she put an I was supposed to have a discussion with my cult leader on the phone. My cult leader. I didn't want to do. Because at that point I was like, I was just something's not right. And she said, like, before you do that, read this article. And it was like something about the the 12 or 20 things that the narcissist will do in a conversation. So I read the whole thing, I got on the phone with him, and literally he did every single one of them. And when I hung up, I was like, oh Lord, I'm never speaking to him again. So I began studying narcissism, psychopathy. Now we learned that stuff in the cult as well. But his brand of it. That's so fascinating.

SPEAKER_00 2:45

So he so like he was like presenting it almost like we we're on the inside of this. And instead, he was actually using all of the things.

SPEAKER_06 2:54

Like he was warning us about what these people were. We never thought, oh, wait, you are the thing you're warning us about.

SPEAKER_01 3:00

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 3:01

So at a certain point, um, I think it was after the trial. So that was 2017. Okay. A lot of stuff happened. It's all in the HBO series. Yes. After the trial.

SPEAKER_00 3:10

Which is brilliant, by the way. The vow.

SPEAKER_06 3:12

Thank you. Yeah. It's it is amazing. I agree. I agree. Um, it's it's a very, very deep uh uh series. And there's and there's two two seasons.

SPEAKER_01 3:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 3:20

Um she said to me, and we were super broken.

SPEAKER_01 3:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 3:24

Um, just emotionally. And she said to me, you know, why don't you take all this energy? Why don't you make a film about narcissism? I was like, that's a great idea. I called a friend of mine that I'd worked with for years, and I said, Hey, do you want to you want to make this film about narcissism? He's like, Yes. Yeah. Because he had one in his family as well. And then a bunch of other people came on board. Um, so we spent basically five years, you know, we've spent now five years, you know, shooting, editing, going back. Wow. You know, we've we spoke to so many more people that are in the than are in the film.

SPEAKER_04 3:54

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 3:54

But what I was trying to do for myself, I guess for myself very selfishly, is answer the question like, how did I not see it? What did I miss?

SPEAKER_00 4:02

Which is the ultimate question that every survivor asks themselves almost like forever, because it's so baffling. And to and to get your mind around essentially evil, like how do you how do you really comprehend that some people are wired in this way? That is, I mean, it's scientific, it's medical, essentially. However, these like I feel for me, it's like a spiritual aspect of the darkness. It's it's almost inconceivable

Inconceivable Darkness

SPEAKER_00 4:27

because you want so much to believe that fundamentally in each human is that goodness and that kindness and that light, no matter what, because it's our humanity, it's what makes us human. So it's sort of, it's like it's so obviously like you know, that's how the cognitive dissonance is so crippling because that false hope in the belief that these people are like us and that they're just, you know, either going through something really difficult, misunderstood, or that enough empathy and and pouring enough into them and and believing in them enough will heal it. But of course, exactly that's and that was the other reason.

SPEAKER_06 5:02

So the one was to figure out how I missed it and also to understand the pathology of my cult leader because he never admitted anything. Of course. So in interviewing self-confessed narcissists, I was it was sort of like interviewing the archetype of my cult leader.

SPEAKER_03 5:14

Wow.

SPEAKER_06 5:14

And the other important thing, besides showing people how it works, is really having people understand exactly what you just said. These people exist, they're not going to be loved back into wellness, they have no desire to be well by our standards, they enjoy what they're doing, they have an illness, if you look at the DSM 5, but they're doing fine and everyone around them is a mess, right?

SPEAKER_03 5:35

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 5:36

So it is that the film is shocking because I'm trying to get past the no, they're just wounded. Like, no, no, no. It's way more than just wounded, you know?

SPEAKER_00 5:45

Yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_06 5:46

So that was my that's been my you know, compulsion. And it's taken a while.

SPEAKER_00 5:49

I mean, you know, we're finding out years and and it's coming out finally in July.

SPEAKER_06 5:54

Is that so for people that donate early, it they're gonna see a July 17th, and we're having an online weekend uh July 24th to the 26th. We'll show the film a number of times. We'll have a bunch of the people in the film, clinicians, that you know, panels, QAs.

SPEAKER_00 6:09

You guys got, I mean, the the top at the top, like the rock stars of the narcissistic abuse world. And Dr. Ramani, who a hero of mine, she like started following me during my very uh brutal public discard and smear campaign, which was, you know, uh obviously just like exact playbook that everyone goes through. But um, unfortunately, in my case, um my abuser had a global megaphone, so it was accentuated and um and like unfathomable, I think, to to people who didn't understand, you know, what they were seeing or what they weren't even thinking, like maybe fire rose isn't a fill-in-the-blank, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep. You know, maybe this is something else. And and and heroes like Dr. Ramani, you know, immediately without me saying a word, because I was completely silent, saw what was happening and, you know, reached out to me. And those experiences meant the entire universe. I'm still dear friends with, you know, this was less than two years ago, but I'm really close to some of the advocates and, you know, uh content creators. And there's this whole world of phenomenally kind, loving um experts that have dedicated their careers, such as yourself, like to unveiling this um horrifying mystery that is something that when we are dealing with it, you feel like the only person on the planet. And I'm sure like I'm so interested to know in terms of like the the cult aspect, because it's always it always feels it's like you're in a cult of one when it's a you know, a marriage or a situation where it's it's um a direct relationship like that. But how does it play out when it's the one narcissist controlling multiple people at the same time in a cult situation?

SPEAKER_06 7:58

It's not different. That's the thing I realized. And this is this is my obsession is when I understood my wife that helped me see it, like

How Cults Work

SPEAKER_06 8:05

narcissistic abuse in a romantic context is the same as family, is the same as church, group, corporation, political party. It could be an entire country. It's just the scale, right? So all the patterns that you see in a romantic relationship, the cult leader's doing as well. There's all there's all the love bombing, you know, and then there's you know, creating this intermittent reinforcement, creating the trauma bonding, you know, the devaluation, the confusion. It's just on a larger scale. And the the narcissist has more people to do their bidding.

SPEAKER_00 8:37

Right.

SPEAKER_06 8:37

They have all these flying monkeys.

SPEAKER_00 8:39

Yeah, just the cult does the cult members become the flying monkeys and then they're all working, and then like I'm sure the triangulation is insane because everyone's being triangulated against each other whilst being abused.

SPEAKER_06 8:50

I had a conversation with with my cult leader like the year before I finally woke up, where I said to him, I think there's a psychopath in this organization doing stuff. And he was like, Really, tell me more. And so I misidentified who it was. And it was one of the people that went to prison.

SPEAKER_00 9:06

That is fascinating.

SPEAKER_06 9:07

And he, because I was so interested in sort of philosophical concepts, he said, like, well, tell me, like, how do you figure this out? Is it using your intellect to understand? Is it a feeling? And I thought that was such an interesting discussion. I didn't realize he just diverted me. So what he would do is he would pit, we would pit us against each other.

SPEAKER_01 9:23

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 9:24

Like every time I said, like, I noticed I noticed the woman doing this thing. I don't think that's healthy. Why are they doing that?

SPEAKER_01 9:29

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 9:29

He'd say things, well, you know, they're all a bunch of socialists and women, blah, blah, blah, and they're yada y, you know, the all the misogynistic shit. Yes. And I was like, okay, but you're in charge. Yeah. So like, I don't understand. He says, Well, they don't all listen to me.

SPEAKER_00 9:43

I said, but So just straight up like the gaslighting, manipulation, davo right in your face. And and and because he's still in that position of authority, you question what you're asking. And constantly. And you actually believed that it was that the psychopath was somebody else in the automatic. I thought it was somebody else. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 10:03

Now it turned out the person did have a pathology. Okay. But I didn't realize who the master, you know, controller was of everything. That took me a while. And I think, you know, and this is the thing I hope for everybody, when you finally see the crack, like for me, the crack was my wife said to me, like, what will it take for you to realize things were not okay?

SPEAKER_00 10:20

So she could see it before. And was she was she in the cult as well? Wow. So she could see from the inside, like with how I mean, that's so phenomenal because it's the hardest thing in the world. Like when you're in it, it doesn't matter how intelligent you are, it doesn't matter how worldly or experienced with you know, anything you are. It is almost, it's like a a completely uh brainwashed, blinding, you you cannot see reality because you're you're being effectively, your reality is being um actively and constantly distorted by somebody with malevolent intentions. So and if they're good, which many narcissists are, unfortunately, they you you you believe the delusion of the reality that they're presenting to you, which is obviously nothing to do with actual reality. So it's like you um you're what's that thing on a ship, the compass? The compass, yeah. Yeah, it's like your internal compass is being purposefully like always off. So you cannot find so it's so amazing that you had her. And how and how did she find the truth? Like, how did she see through it?

SPEAKER_06 11:21

It's a long story. It was basically a uh a very deep spiritual connection moment that she had actually took like 10 days. She took 10 days away from everything because she was like, My body's responding so badly to everything. I feel terrible, I feel ill, I don't feel well. She went away. Um, we were at that point in Albany, New York. She came out here to Marina Del Rey because we had friends, she stayed there and just sat still and said, Okay, what's what's this terrible fear I have? What's going on? And she had a moment, I guess, where she kind of woke up and she said to me, like, things are really bad.

SPEAKER_01 11:53

Wow.

SPEAKER_06 11:53

And she didn't even know what was bad at that point. So it took us a while to figure out what was really going on.

SPEAKER_01 11:58

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 11:58

Um, but she what I think happened is she tuned very deeply into her own body and her feeling and her intuition, which I was so disconnected from at that point.

SPEAKER_00 12:08

And then she's how many years had you been in the college?

SPEAKER_06 12:11

Uh 12 years.

unknown 12:12

Wow.

SPEAKER_06 12:12

But we weren't, you know, we weren't there all the time. I was uh, you know, I had a place here in LA. I was going back and forth all the time, so I had access to the world.

SPEAKER_00 12:18

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_06 12:19

Um but it I had

Unmasking Evil

SPEAKER_06 12:21

been very, very conditioned at that point. So I she said to me one day, like, what will it take? And I said, I just give me evidence. And so she said, I have two women I want you to talk to. I spoke to the two women, and the stories they told me were identical of what the leader was doing, and I had no reason to doubt them. Because I realized, why there's no reason they would lie. So then I went to him and I started asking him questions. Because what he was doing, just so the audience understands, is that underneath this business school, he had blackmailed all these women and had created this weird sex slave MLM thing going on where the women were being coterized with his initials like right next to their vagina. It was really horrible stuff.

SPEAKER_00 13:01

Horrifying.

SPEAKER_06 13:02

And he was trying to entrap all these women. And so then I went to him and I said, I'm hearing about a secret society, you know, and like, what secret society? He said, like, of these women who are being blackmailed.

SPEAKER_01 13:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 13:13

And are having to give collateral. He says, Well, I don't know anything about that. And I says, Well, I highly doubt you don't know anything about that because you're in charge of everything.

SPEAKER_00 13:20

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 13:21

And he says, Well, I'll investigate. And I was like, You're lying.

SPEAKER_00 13:26

You knew you saw it, and and the like you could see through the veil of the deception.

SPEAKER_06 13:32

And then what happened is I was this is one lie.

unknown 13:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 13:36

Like, what if there's more?

SPEAKER_03 13:38

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_06 13:38

And then I began asking more and more questions, and then I began realizing, oh, he's lying about everything. So all the conversations we were having at that point, he was trying to sort of, you know, head fuck me. And I was like, okay, I could be wrong, but and I was starting to and I was working at that point. I was doing a project for a task force here in LA that was LAPD, um, FBI, and a bunch of other groups about human trafficking. And I was beginning to ask questions of the of the woman I was interviewing about like, why did you not run away? Why did you because I thought you were chained? And they said, We're never chained. And I said, You're never chained? You're never locked up. They said no. So I began to understand that and then realized, oh my God, that's what he's doing.

SPEAKER_00 14:20

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 14:20

So it was a whole series of things.

SPEAKER_00 14:22

That is so fascinating. So you're learning about essentially like how how they I call it farm prison. Like I was within farm prison, even though, yes, I wasn't physically chained, but I was psychologically coerced for years leading up to my physical, like I was not allowed to leave the farm where we lived. I was not allowed to have friends. I was not allowed to go to church. I was not allowed to go to anything outside of the farm. I was convinced that, you know, I would be raped or murdered. Or that the one time if I left, yes. I I I like it didn't have a car for years. But when even when I asked for Christmas, like the only thing I wanted was my car to be brought from LA, you know, to outside of Nashville where we lived, I was not allowed to use it because it was the the the threat of the punishment that if I it wasn't like I, you know, it was sitting there just for months. Like it was it, I he had done such a brilliant job of psychologically capturing me to the point where I was terrified of the outside world. I truly believed he was my protector, ironically. And of course, when the person that is like torturing you and and traumatizing you in that way is also has convinced you that they are the one, the only one that can save you. It's it's it's the ultimate, like, yeah, my own.

SPEAKER_06 15:42

Those classical interrogation techniques is the same.

SPEAKER_00 15:44

I mean, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 15:45

If you look at the CIA manual of interrogation, it's the same shit these guys are doing.

Need For Control

SPEAKER_00 15:50

Really?

SPEAKER_06 15:50

It's extraordinary, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:51

Okay, so I'm so fascinated. Like, this I have a million questions for you, but but how like how do they have this playbook downloaded? Like, is that part of the psychopathy? Like, how how is it that each each narcissist has the identical way that they they like instinctually know how to abuse their survival?

SPEAKER_06 16:10

I don't have a clinician's answer because I'm not an expert in that way. But what I've come to is their brains are similar, their nervous systems are similar, and at the base of everything, they have a terrible, terrible need that is unquenchable.

SPEAKER_03 16:21

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 16:22

And the only way to make it feel better, at least temporarily, is to control everything.

SPEAKER_02 16:25

Right.

SPEAKER_06 16:26

So they control everything. Yes. And they have to try and destabilize people so that they can sort of turn them into what they want them to be. So you're a person. I don't want you to be a person, I want you to be a robot. Yes. So I need to almost disembowel your psyche and your soul so that you can become who I want you to be, which is a loyal slave.

SPEAKER_00 16:43

Loyal slave, exactly. Yes.

SPEAKER_06 16:45

I think it comes from this desperate, pathological, really screwed-up need they have of and this emptiness that they're trying to fill all the time. I think. And that's why they seem to behave the same way, whether it's uh somebody running a corporation or somebody running a church in in an evil, bad way, or politically, it's it's all the same.

SPEAKER_00 17:04

But do they that do they ever get that like essentially you become the supply and the and you know, for everyone who's survived a narcissist, you know what that is, which is essentially like you're you're feeding that the endless void of them feeling. But just like any, you know, void that can't be filled, it is endless and it only gets worse.

SPEAKER_04 17:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:24

And it only progressively gets worse. So that so you know, all the literature and and every expert will tell you it will never get better. You are not the exception. You are like, you know, at however much you deeply love this person, if they are truly a narcissist, you will inevitably be decimated. There is only one way that this is going. And of course, I mean, you know, I have so many beautiful souls reaching out to me in my DMs every day, you know, sometimes like sharing the most incredibly inspiring and wonderful stories. Like, you know, just recently, this amazing survivor just shared with me that her and her son left and that she's been four months out. And, you know, it's just like the the hope and like um belief that all the the work that we're doing to advocate and and share this information in any way is gonna please God culturally shift their understanding. Because and I I just I think that your film is going to be so tremendous for that because it's going to be like a uh, you know, uh I don't want to use compass again, but like a a a um a benchmark, you know, like a a st a um what's the cornerstone that we can point to. And because not everyone, you know, can read a book if they're in if they're in captivity, essentially. Like you're not allowed. I know for me, like I wasn't just allowed to have a book of narcissism sitting there. Like I would have, I would have been punished for it. So maybe there's ways, especially on social media, to see the clips and you know there are.

SPEAKER_06 18:58

We've posted a whole bunch of clips, and actually what we started doing now, we posted a bunch of clips from the film. Um, there's a bunch of things, you know, that we're not revealing because as you know, there's a twist in the film. Um the film, just so the audience understands, it starts out like what seems to be maybe it's gonna be an educational documentary and then becomes a thriller.

SPEAKER_03 19:15

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 19:15

Like out of nowhere.

SPEAKER_03 19:16

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 19:17

Um, documents to some degree, you know, what we went through. But we're now putting out a lot of clips that we never made it into the film. And we have so much material that's amazing. We might do more.

SPEAKER_02 19:29

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 19:30

You know, so we have like every person we interviewed, I mean, we interviewed them for at least three hours.

SPEAKER_00 19:34

Wow.

SPEAKER_06 19:35

Some way more.

SPEAKER_00 19:36

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 19:36

You know, so we have a lot of material.

SPEAKER_00 19:38

That makes perfect sense. I mean, even just like the ever

Courageous Survivors

SPEAKER_00 19:40

and Rachel Woods story is so I could I didn't just relate so much. And uh and the and the she's just you know, the most beautiful, honest, like everyone's an amazing human. She is clearly, and I am so grateful that that you know, she was brave enough and willing to share her story in and you know, testify because it's so important, especially for women, but obviously for survivors.

SPEAKER_06 20:05

But but you know what's amazing as well, and this is a testament to like it happens at different scales. Evan actually reached out to my wife and I.

SPEAKER_02 20:11

Yeah, she reached out to you.

SPEAKER_06 20:13

Well, after the vow, she first reached out to my wife, and then you know, and then her and I spoke. Because at one point I was trying to, you know, help them with a bunch of sort of legal and law enforcement things that I that I understood. Um, and then we we were kind of friends for a while, and then I think about a year later I said, Hey, Evan, I'm making this film, and you know, would you be in? Before I finished the sentence, she said, Yes.

SPEAKER_00 20:33

Yeah, I'm in. Amazing.

SPEAKER_06 20:34

So, and she's very happy with she. I I showed her a cut recently. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:38

That's incredible. I mean, yeah, she's she's in extraordinary.

SPEAKER_06 20:42

She is, but again, she saw the vow, she saw a cult story, and she was like, Well, that's actually my story as well. Yeah, everybody has that experience when they watch like a cult documentary. Exactly. I think when people watch um Narcissus Playbook, they'll have the same thing. I'm currently doing a podcast series about another cult called Instaguru. The amount of people that reach out and say, I was never in a cult, but I was in a relationship with one, or I had a boss who was one. Yeah. And it's the same stuff.

SPEAKER_00 21:07

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_06 21:08

It's always the same.

SPEAKER_00 21:08

Do you know maybe it's like too horrifying to know, but what percentage of the population have NPD?

SPEAKER_06 21:16

You know, I've heard like, you know, five to seven percent, but then I've heard people say it's it's up to 20%, maybe 25%. I think it depends. Like if you go to Wall Street, it's high.

SPEAKER_01 21:26

Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 21:27

Hollywood, it's high.

SPEAKER_01 21:28

Yes, right.

SPEAKER_06 21:29

Hollywood is high. This town, it's very, very high. So I I I think 5% is low.

SPEAKER_00 21:34

Okay, that totally makes sense. Do different industries like attract higher percentages because especially if the industry, like if if the brand is a person, therefore, of course, that attracts a higher percentage of the city. Exactly.

SPEAKER_06 21:45

And then there's there's corporations that that basically behave like lessists or behave like psychologists who are designed by those people.

SPEAKER_00 21:52

Absolutely, yes. Have you ever read Scott Peck People of the Lie by chance? He he's the author of The Roadless. I never finished it. It's my favorite book. Yeah, I just think I just love that he's like he comes from the psychological perspective and also the spiritual perspective and sort of like marries the two because like it's um I think the acceptance that we you know live amongst people who present as people, but they are capable of such atrocities and and and like the way I see it is psychopaths kill bodies and narcissists kill souls.

SPEAKER_04 22:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:29

And it's like uh to explain that to someone who you know, just leave, just leave. Like how many people in my comments? Why didn't it's your fault because you had two legs, you you know. But if people understand that when you're, I mean, you're clearly incredibly intelligent, your wife is clearly incredibly intelligent.

SPEAKER_06 22:48

She's smarter than me.

SPEAKER_00 22:49

How would you explain to somebody that you know is just ignorant on the idea of you, you your free will has essentially been taken away from you? How do you explain that an intelligent, worldly, successful couple, even together with you, you you guys together still, it took years to uncover?

SPEAKER_06 23:07

I mean, one silly and maybe it's a very male metaphor is you know, if you if you have a plane that has a radar system built in, you know, the plane can get away. But if you disable the radar system, where's the plane gonna go? Like you have to disable the radar system, which means you disable the person's ability to connect deeply to their own feelings because what you tell them is those feelings are bad.

unknown 23:26

Wow.

SPEAKER_06 23:27

You know, you're like you're too emotional, you're too this, you're too that, you're too bad.

SPEAKER_01 23:31

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_06 23:31

And then also what you what they do is they slowly invert your morality. So now the the very system that you should use to decide what is good and bad in your life, you don't know how to use properly.

SPEAKER_02 23:42

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 23:42

And then the things that are normal, like somebody you're being abused and you feel bad. Yeah, that bad feeling, especially in a cult, is made you're made to believe that that's your limitation. That's your weakness.

SPEAKER_00 23:54

Right.

SPEAKER_06 23:54

You know, you don't have what it takes.

SPEAKER_00 23:56

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 23:57

Like I thought you were serious about this.

SPEAKER_02 23:59

Yes, yes. You know, totally.

SPEAKER_06 24:00

I'm feeling bad. Yes. Well, that's because you're just weak, you know. But that's because you don't have what it takes. I mean, when people leave cults, that's the first thing they do. You don't have what it takes. I mean, right now at this podcast I'm doing, the loyalists get on on YouTube and they do some version of, well, they didn't understand the teachings. And I was like, all right, well, let me show you the teachings. I want to show you what the teachings are.

Weaponizing Trust

SPEAKER_00 24:20

That's so insidious and exactly like it is it's your it's your own instincts turned against you and then weaponized. It's like I always think um, you know, in in a personal relationship version, it's like your your capacity to love is used as a weapon to then hurt you. And the deeper that that's why, you know, they specifically often target empaths, because the um endless ability to forgive somebody that is hurting you so profoundly is actually like to their advantage. So, and and it's really hard in that situation to first get clarity, but then also, you know, find because you're so worn down by the abuse and the like psychological, it's like your brain is scrambled eggs in a way. You can't you can't figure out like, well, you know, of course they're the version that loves me, because otherwise I am literally deeply in love with somebody who's enjoying hurting me. And how do you accept that? I know because then what does that make you?

SPEAKER_06 25:17

I know. It's interesting. I just wonder there's one other thought I have, you know, and I I just released an episode of what's called Instaguru, episode nine today. And in the very beginning, I talk about the psychological immune system. They basically disable your psychological immune system. But then what they have they they have you do is they have your own immune system work against you.

SPEAKER_04 25:35

Right.

SPEAKER_06 25:36

So you're having these feelings about the person that says they love you, and you start to go, that's because I'm bad that I have these feelings. I shouldn't have these feelings. The normal feelings.

SPEAKER_02 25:45

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_06 25:46

If you're creeped out, now you start to take apart the fact that you're creeped out as your problem.

SPEAKER_02 25:51

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 25:52

Because why are you creeped out about somebody that's providing for you financially? Okay, sometimes they're mean, but they're also nice. Yes. So you're starting to hold on to the nice because as you say, you don't want to accept what if you accept that the person's horrible and evil? Yes. Your whole life is about to explode. So you have to like lock it down.

SPEAKER_01 26:08

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 26:08

But your own immune system that's supposed to protect you begins to take you apart. Like they install criticism, they install self-doubt in you. Well, everybody has it. Yes, but they exacerbate and make it worse. So now you're literally tearing yourself apart. They're not even in the room. You're tearing yourself apart because you're such a piece of shit. Yes. Because you can't just get on board with this relationship that they told you the reason this relationship is not working is because of you.

SPEAKER_00 26:35

Absolutely. Yes.

SPEAKER_06 26:36

And you're like, no, it's because of them.

SPEAKER_00 26:38

Yes, yes, yes. It's really, it's like, it's, it's like spiritual warfare, psychological warfare. And you feel, I mean, when you're in it, you feel like you're in a war. And when you, you know, please God, hopefully, everyone who is currently in it escapes and and then you you look back and you reflect, and you you almost like can't recognize the version of yourself that was, you know, um unable because I mean, I'm I just celebrated 10 years of sobriety last week, and I went through this, you know, entire relationship, which was like I had known him for 15 years. He'd started grooming me from when I was 22 years old. And 10 years later, I was in this romantic relationship, and I had no idea I was in serious danger until about like two, maybe two and a half years in. And even when I when I was uh, you know, I I I found that like you know, scrolling late night, just tears scrolling, like sorry, it's so difficult to talk about, but it's like um he'd be fast asleep and I'd be just like desperate for answers. Like, what is what is my life? How is this my life? What is wrong with me that that I am in this position and um and and how do I fix this? And I found the term, you know, narcissist, and I found the term narcissistic abuse, and I and every single thing, you know, these accounts with with the information, I was like, that's what I that's what it is. And it was like this, you know, first time I'd felt kind of the oxygen of like, maybe I'm you know not crazy or maybe I'm like because because at that point my my self-worth had been, you know, so whittled down to absolutely nothing that I genuinely like it's just it's it's the wildest thing. And um, and in in retrospect, I guess I just think, what if I had not found what I was dealing with? Because even then it took, you know, years and I and I didn't have the ability to, you know, like snap myself out of it. It was like there was no amount of me understanding what was happening to me.

SPEAKER_06 28:40

Did you find though, because you you know when you said like you you realize you're in a war, but like I didn't realize I was in a war because I

The Invisible War

SPEAKER_06 28:47

had so disconnected and I felt so dissociated that I didn't realize that it I was at a war until I began to connect deeply to what I was feeling. And then I was like, oh, this is terrible.

SPEAKER_02 29:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 29:00

Because you become so, I don't know if this is was like this for you, but you become so desensitized to how bad it is until you wake up. And then when you wake up, weirdly enough, you you have this PTSD, C PTSD, like suddenly you're like, oh my God. Yes, like it's horrible. Yes, and I've been making horrible okay.

SPEAKER_00 29:19

That's it was so interesting. I feel I feel like I I split into two. I was in cognitive dissonance, and it was like there was two realities happening at the same time. It was like, you know, baby, I'm so sorry, I'll never call you that again. I'll never, you know, like that, and oh the relief, and I can breathe and oh, I'm not crazy, and everything's good and it's fine, you know, however long that would last. And then the crazy narcissistic rage slammed over my in my face, and then, you know, oh my gosh, no, my reality, no, it's narcissistic abuse. That's really my reality. And so I was like oscillating for years between the two, and it was so exhausting. And and so I, you know, the journaled extensively. I'm a songwriter, so I wrote it all in these songs when I was, you know, in a silent treatment. And essentially, um, it was me trying to convince myself of the truth against like my own brain.

SPEAKER_06 30:10

It's amazing, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 30:11

Yeah, it really is. And and so I like, yeah, I'm I it's I don't think a lifetime of of kind of like dismantling it will ever, I don't think you can ever fully understand, but your film does the most profound job of showing, you know, it in the in a length of a film what the experience is like. And I think for anyone, you know, who's who's blessed enough to have never survived it, will get the like experience, you know, like any great film.

SPEAKER_06 30:43

They I think yeah, because I mean, I have in every little screening we've done, we did a we did one at UCLA for clinicians like a month ago. Um pretty much everybody said, like, I did not see it coming.

SPEAKER_03 30:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 30:58

I did not see the twist coming. And also they all acknowledge that what's great about the film, and I agree, is that it takes you through the experience of what it's like to be fooled.

SPEAKER_00 31:06

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_06 31:08

How could you be fooled? And like you go through the experience in the movie, you're like, oh, yeah, that's how it works.

SPEAKER_00 31:13

Yes, exactly. And the and the fact, like, you know, they as part of the psychopathy, they are masters at the idolization, love bombing, you know, that phase, it feels it feels like nothing else that you've ever experienced in terms of it's like they zone in on everything that you have ever, you know, not had and everything you've always been longing for in a partner, and they become that. It's almost like a um chameleon, is that like you know, the somebody described it um uh as they become the perfect mother you never had.

SPEAKER_06 31:47

Or maybe you did have an amazing mother, but they basically like figure out what are all your wounds, and they so you you know, you that's like the the the lock.

SPEAKER_02 31:56

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 31:56

They have the key then because they have extracted the information of what your wounds are, what you yearn for, what you're afraid of. Yes, and they put that key in and turn it. Yes, and you have elation because you're finally seen in a way you've never been seen before. Yes, and now they're gonna give you, at least at first, the ultimate love, like maybe a mother's love. Of course, they want that in return as well. And because you're a human being and you're not like their delusion, at some point they're gonna get upset at you because you're not behaving like the robot fashion you should behave, right?

SPEAKER_01 32:27

Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_06 32:28

But it is elated, and that's the thing I think people don't understand. It's like, think about teenage love, which is stupid. That is a bit how it sometimes feels because you're given the answers.

SPEAKER_00 32:38

Yeah, I think teenage love is beautiful. I mean, like yes, yes, it's it's unreasonable.

SPEAKER_06 32:42

You do silly things, you know, you your brain goes offline. Yes, and it's just like gaga and wow, this is amazing, and like you're my soul, whatever.

SPEAKER_00 32:49

I had friends, you know, at the time see immediately what was happening. And they, you know, they didn't call, they didn't know about narcissism, but they were like, this is a predator who is trying to ensnare you, essentially. Like to watch out, you're in danger. And I thought, you know, they have no idea. They have no idea. And of course, you know, in respect, I feel terrible because they were genuinely like caring for me and um and didn't didn't want what happened to me happen. But um, I had no idea at that point that I was in such danger.

SPEAKER_03 33:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:22

And I'm so interested, like when when you did you guys like you and your wife join the Nexium Cult at the same time?

SPEAKER_06 33:29

No, I joined first.

SPEAKER_00 33:30

Oh wow, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 33:31

And um, because I knew a lot of people in in the film industry, I was enrolling a lot of people like from Hollywood and wherever.

SPEAKER_02 33:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 33:38

And um I'm what I a few years after I met her, you know, she joined as well.

SPEAKER_02 33:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 33:44

Um, and then she just stayed because the other thing is there were there were good things.

SPEAKER_02 33:49

Yes, of course. Yes.

SPEAKER_06 33:50

There was really good education there.

SPEAKER_02 33:52

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 33:53

It it it went bad in the end. Where it led was very, very bad, but there was good stuff in there.

SPEAKER_02 33:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 33:58

So, you know, she was in for seven years and I was in for 12. But I will tell you, when I first went

How Predators Select Supply

SPEAKER_06 34:04

in, I thought these people get me.

SPEAKER_01 34:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 34:06

I mean, listen, the way they they scouted me, first of all.

SPEAKER_01 34:09

How?

SPEAKER_06 34:09

So I made this film called What the Bleep Do We Know, right?

SPEAKER_01 34:11

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_06 34:12

Back in uh, we released it in 2004. They began scouting me. They watched the they watched every radio interview I did, every TV interview I did, everything I wrote.

SPEAKER_01 34:19

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 34:19

They had meetings about me to figure out like what does Mark want? Yes now. What did Mark want at that point? I want to change the world through movies. That's what I wanted, right? Yeah. Still kind of do.

SPEAKER_03 34:29

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 34:30

Um, so they wrote me emails and they wrote me letters, and then they said to me one day, hey, we'd we'd like to meet some people that you know. Can we pick you up? And I said, sure. So they go to the airport, they land on a private learjet, and we fly around the country for the next like 10 days or whatever it was.

SPEAKER_00 34:44

Total lumber.

SPEAKER_06 34:45

This learjet, and based which they own, saying we'd like to help you make your movies. We're gonna help you finance your movies.

SPEAKER_00 34:51

Of course.

SPEAKER_06 34:51

Not to a filmmaker, to any artist.

SPEAKER_00 34:53

Yes, of course.

SPEAKER_06 34:54

It's like, you know, I'm in. Yes, absolutely. What do we do?

SPEAKER_00 34:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 34:58

Well, before we before you make these films that we're gonna help you finance, yeah. We need to fix you a little bit. Like, you know, you want to be humanitarian, but there's a bunch of things about you that aren't very humanitarian, like your anger at people and your your rage at like other people, you know, and that all that projective stuff. Why don't we work on you first? Because if you want to build a better civilization, don't you think you should be a better unit?

SPEAKER_00 35:19

On a silver plateau, all your deepest hearts, desires, your hopes and dreams, everything you've worked your whole life for. But the caveat is we need to fix you first. You've got some things to tweak. Yeah. You know, there's some things to tweak in your personality.

SPEAKER_06 35:32

You're wonderful as you are, really. But like those examples. And I go through these courses, and of course, things would happen. They said, like there, for example. Yes. That anger you have. Yeah. How are you going to change the world if you're so angry? I was like, that's a good point. You know, I don't want to be angry. I want to be humanitarian. Yeah. Like I want to, you know, be ethical and like, you know, reasonable and compassionate, and I don't want to be that person.

SPEAKER_00 35:52

Well, why don't we work on like changing that person? They they convinced you to believe that they were the only solution for these perceived flaws.

SPEAKER_06 36:01

Because I had tried a lot of other things.

SPEAKER_00 36:03

Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 36:04

And what they presented me was a what they call a tech, you know.

SPEAKER_01 36:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 36:08

That was very effective. I mean, I went in and I think on the fourth day of the of this particular intensive, you know, they said, like, who has a phobia or something? I said, I have a phobia. You know, I have I have panic attacks in traffic. Yes. Because I was living in LA. Yes. I mean, but also other things happened. I knew exactly why I had the panic attacks.

SPEAKER_02 36:24

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 36:25

But I could never do anything about them. I went to therapy, nothing had nothing would do it. In about 50 minutes, the head trainer worked on me and something shifted. And I was like, I feel very differently. And I went back to LA. I forgot about it.

SPEAKER_02 36:38

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 36:38

Went back to LA and about three weeks later, I was in traffic and I was like, that's weird. I'm in traffic on the 405, nothing's moving, and I'm, whoa, it worked. My life is gonna be better.

SPEAKER_01 36:52

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 36:52

I was taking side streets everywhere.

SPEAKER_00 36:54

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 36:54

Which in LA, as you know, is very hard.

SPEAKER_00 36:56

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 36:56

But I thought, well, of course. So if I can get rid of this phobia, imagine the other things I could do.

SPEAKER_00 37:00

What did they do to do that?

SPEAKER_06 37:02

They dissociated me into a specific siloed part of my brain where I didn't feel that. I understood later.

SPEAKER_02 37:08

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 37:09

In 2017, I reached out to this cult D programmer who was supposedly Satan and the enemy kind of thing. And I reached out to him and I said, Do you know who I am? He says, I know exactly who you are. Yes. Because you know, we were enemies. And um, he realized that I was I was waking up and like I realized it was bad. And he said to me, All the psychological things you had when you went in are waiting for you. They fixed nothing. And I'm like, nothing. He says, it's all waiting for you. And as I woke up, the phobias, everything came back because all that they'd done is helped me de uh dissociate those parts and not feel them. They were still there.

SPEAKER_00 37:47

That is fascinating. I didn't even know that was a like a thing that could you could psychologically do. But of course, a a real therapist wouldn't do that with the with like the because it's not. You don't want to bury that stuff.

SPEAKER_06 38:00

You want it to come out so we can work in it and look at it and say, there it is, and watch the fear. And how do we go back to whatever, whatever, whatever? Yeah. So they did a very interesting technique. But what they did is they in some ways they they they they made you have distance from the thing, almost like you were desensitized to the thing. But that doesn't really do anything.

SPEAKER_00 38:18

And when you were waking up, and it like so it's so interesting because I just

Cognitive Dissonance

SPEAKER_00 38:24

I remember so clearly the very moment what that, you know, uh years after I'd I had been thrown into the cognitive dissonance of my these two realities, like, you know, I I have these extensive journals documenting exactly the truth of what I was living. Wow. But then of course I have, you know, so you were writing honestly what you were feeling. Yeah, like secretly in my notes app. Okay. And in the lyrics of these songs that, you know, I'm now like turning into actual records. And it's just blatantly there. It's it's it's verbatim, you know, because that's where songwriting comes from, directly from your soul. And so I'm pouring out the truth in these lyrics. And then simultaneously, like as soon as the I love you so much, you know, I'm so sorry that'll never happen again, like the the the mask came back on. Yeah, but it's like I forgot, almost like I was like, so it's just it's fascinating in terms of like the the psychology of how your, I guess our brains are trying to protect themselves. Yeah. And so therefore, so like you, you buried and and and pushed away these things that were at the time hurting you, but for like you were being manipulated to do that by people that were significantly hurting you more than the panic attacks were.

SPEAKER_06 39:37

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 39:38

That's so interesting.

SPEAKER_06 39:39

And they and they understood stuff about the way of human behavior that was pretty profound to me at the time. Yes. Now I understand what I'm looking at because I've studied a lot more. But at the time I was like, holy shit, this is amazing. And what and what was the the way the intensives worked worked is that like, and what was so exciting is you know, you came in with a certain belief or a thought, and then by the end of the day, you thought completely differently, and that seemed to stay. And I was like, I want to do that with movies. Yes. Like I want to make movies that where people walk in and they go through the experience of the film and they come out thinking differently forever.

SPEAKER_02 40:10

Yes. Yes.

SPEAKER_06 40:12

So that's why to me it was like, this is amazing. I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna stick it out and see what where it leads.

SPEAKER_00 40:17

And in those years, did they did they actually like help you make the films? Or did you think that's it?

SPEAKER_06 40:24

The same as with the with the with a narcissistic abusive relationship. Um the they I sat and waited because they said, like the leader said, you know, I'll I'll I'll work with you at some point, kind of thing. Or maybe the second in command said it, and I thought, okay, this dude's super smart. He's developed this amazing thing that can change people. Like, okay, we need to work in a movie. And I was frustrated because I just waited and waited and waited. And on my birthday, he called me one morning and said, Let's take a walk.

SPEAKER_01 40:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 40:50

Took a walk and he says, I want he says, I want to tell you an idea for a film. And I was like, This is great. I get to work with him. So I wrote the first treatment for the film, right? And he said, It's amazing. And everybody said it's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 41:02

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 41:02

That was the last compliment I got for 12 years. Everything after that was not good enough. So I couldn't make anything because it wasn't eventually I was like, I'm gonna make this thing, I'm gonna go make that thing. And then it's like, well, you're being, you know, you're being very independent, and you know, what's wrong with being independent? You're you're being very arrogant. No, I'm not. I'm a director. That's you know, we kind of take up a little space stone.

SPEAKER_00 41:27

Wild, it's literally it's literally like you could just copy paste even though it's completely different scenario, even different relationship type, yet the identical playbooks.

SPEAKER_06 41:37

You're amazing. Like your music's amazing, your voice is amazing.

SPEAKER_00 41:40

You're the best songwriter I've ever written with. It's like you're the most talented. The first thing he he ever said about me, like, and he's you know, to People Magazine or whatever, like I the moment I saw her, I knew she was a star. And that, like, oh, it's so it's like a bit nauseating, obviously.

SPEAKER_06 41:56

But then did he pick away at you after that?

SPEAKER_00 41:58

Absolutely, like the devaluation, uh the idolizations, uh, you know, I mean, granted, I guess you could, depending

Before Their Mask Drops

SPEAKER_00 42:05

on the timelines, it started um slowly progressed over 10 years. He got my trust. He had my complete trust that I genuinely believed he was, you know, for me.

SPEAKER_04 42:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:16

And uh before the romantic relationship, you know, before the love bombing and the ensnarement kind of happened, and it was it was so, you know, full on the floor.

SPEAKER_06 42:25

Oh, so you totally trusted.

SPEAKER_00 42:27

Completely for 10 years I had believed that this person was my friend, uh, even though you know some of his baby was entirely inappropriate for a friend, and also like he was over twice my age, and like, what is he doing being friends with the 22-year-old? It didn't make any sense. But yeah, it was the you know, I didn't see the mask off until I had essentially like moved in with him. And by that point, we were engaged, and it was like, it was like that. So I I don't, I just I guess it's really difficult for people to understand because it's like, well, the first time you see the behavior, you know, that's obviously inconsistent, words not matching actions, and you know, the triangulation and the and the intermittent reinforcement, all that happens way before. Yeah, but you don't see the monster, you don't see what like what's really is you just you excuse and you make, you know, like I'm so interested with um with your cult leader, like when was the first moment that you saw the the mask completely come off? And what did you tell yourself about that moment?

SPEAKER_06 43:29

I think it was actually to some degree it was that lie.

SPEAKER_00 43:32

Right. Okay.

SPEAKER_06 43:33

Because I remember I and there was another conversation we'd had where I said to him, I remember exactly where I was. I was in I was in Las Velas, I lived in this apartment building, and I was on the roof because that some of those buildings have these amazing roofs with views. And I was on the roof talking to him, and I said, I'm noticing that everybody that's going through this one particular course that you've started is miserable. Um and they're unhappy. Says, yes, you know, well, you know, it takes a bit of time. I said, No, no, no, no. It's been years and they are a shell of themselves. In fact, some of those women are so skinny, their skin looks translucent to me. Like, and I said, like this one Allison Mack, the actress, and I said to him, Allison looks terrible. And he said to me, Well, she's still getting her period. And I'm like, What? In my mind, I'm like, why are we even discussing her period? How do you know?

SPEAKER_02 44:29

Yes, yes, what is going on? Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 44:32

And I was like, what is happening here? Wow. I didn't understand he was sleeping with everybody. Forcing them because they were all blackmailed. Because he had all the he had like their bank accounts, the ATM cards, he had forced confessions out of them. People had to make up confessions if it wasn't real. Somebody made up a confession, her father raped her, which he never did, all to be used as leverage so he could do whatever he wanted. But those kind of moments were like, why are we talking about somebody's another woman's period? Absolutely. Yes. What is going on here? And then I realized that he's monitoring everybody. He's trying to see how skinny can he get them, and they were still vaguely functional. And the thing, of course, at that point, as I'm sure everybody knows, when you're asleep deprived, as we all were, and then you're deprived of calories, because these girls were down to 350, 500 a day, which is like that's not good. Nothing. You can't think anymore.

SPEAKER_02 45:26

Of course. Yes.

SPEAKER_06 45:27

And that was the stuff I was like, something's not right. But this is what, and you'll understand this. I still held him because it was sort of a military structure. Yes. He's the commander. I still held him as like, well, he's still the boss. Yes. So like that's weird. Doesn't make sense. I don't know what's going on, but okay, I'll we'll keep on going. Until I realized, oh no, you're just a shit boss. You're horrible. Yes. Like, what are you doing?

SPEAKER_00 45:51

Yeah. And then for and and when you finally like woke up and and you and your wife really like came to terms with the fact that what you were dealing with, how quickly did you get out of it?

SPEAKER_06 46:02

Well, she, I mean, she was basically said, I'm I'm I'm gonna go to LA full-time. I'm we're moving, so we had a place here. And it took me, it took her about six months to like get me to really get it.

SPEAKER_02 46:12

Yeah.

Waking Up

SPEAKER_06 46:13

Once I woke up, it was a it the full wake-up was a shattering day for me.

SPEAKER_02 46:17

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 46:18

Uh, I had suicide ideation. I was like, what is going on? And the way I describe it is I woke up, you know, remember Stranger Things?

SPEAKER_02 46:26

Uh I haven't actually seen it.

SPEAKER_06 46:27

Some of your audience will have seen it. Yeah. There's this upside down world that is exactly like this world. It's just upside down and it's dark and evil and horrible. I woke up in that world and thought, I thought this was the normal world. I'm upside down and backwards. My moral compass is all over the place. I don't know what's going on.

SPEAKER_03 46:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 46:43

What is good? What is bad? What is happening? Yeah. So that was a terrible day because my life had been defined by, you know, I was, I was, I was raised in South Africa. I saw terrible things like I was against apartheid. I made anti-apartheid films.

SPEAKER_01 46:56

Wow.

SPEAKER_06 46:57

So morality was important to me.

SPEAKER_01 46:59

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 47:00

And I realized suddenly everything's backwards.

SPEAKER_01 47:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 47:03

Like I think this thing is good. I think it's actually evil. Yeah. So what does that mean about me? Yes. And that's, and then my rage set in. Because then I was like, I have all these friends, my female friends. He's doing terrible things to him. And that's when I developed this kind of rage. You know how there's red hot rage and there's white hot rage. White heart rage is it's a terrible thing. It's very cold and very calm. And I'm like, this ends now.

SPEAKER_00 47:27

That's amazing.

SPEAKER_06 47:28

And we all began working together. And like we finally got to the FBI and got him in prison.

SPEAKER_00 47:32

You were like the the head witness for the trial?

SPEAKER_06 47:35

There were a few. I wasn't doing anyone. But I opened the trial. Uh I was the second. I my job in the trial was to set up the way the whole thing worked.

SPEAKER_02 47:42

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 47:43

And then then they began bringing out all the women that had been abused after that. So that the jury had a sense of like, oh, this is this is the cover.

SPEAKER_02 47:50

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 47:51

And then I began to tell them what was going on underneath, which sounds like, well, that's weird. No. Then they presented all the female witnesses and people that turned state's evidence and said, yeah, okay, this is what's really going on.

SPEAKER_00 48:02

How long after that horrifying day was the trial?

SPEAKER_06 48:07

So my big wake-up would have been May 2017. The trial was May 2019. So two years later.

SPEAKER_00 48:13

And in those two years, like did everything just kind of come back to you in this from the lens of clarity, of reality that you've got to be.

SPEAKER_06 48:21

Not totally because we were at war. Yes. Because like they were after us, they were trying to put us in prison. They had private investigators looking for us. They were trying to destroy us.

SPEAKER_01 48:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 48:29

We had the FBI on our side, which they didn't really understand. So we it was just war.

SPEAKER_01 48:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 48:35

Um, I think I only really like got to slow down. I remember like as when the trial started, the FBI agents that I was spending time with said, like, you know, it's gonna be six weeks and then it's over, and then just you need to do your life. And it's gonna be hard because you're you're so busy fighting.

Ending The Abuse

SPEAKER_06 48:50

And when the trial was over, I was like, now what?

SPEAKER_02 48:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 48:55

Because the fight was done. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 48:57

And you guys won.

SPEAKER_06 48:58

We won.

SPEAKER_02 48:59

Thank God.

SPEAKER_06 49:00

He's in prison now for uh he's he went to prison for 120 years, he served five years so far. So he's dying in prison.

SPEAKER_00 49:07

You're a hero, a true it was necessary.

SPEAKER_06 49:10

It was necessary.

SPEAKER_00 49:11

I mean, but it's like when you think about how many lives are destroyed in silence and they never get that justice.

SPEAKER_03 49:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:20

And you see, and and you know, if for every for every survivor, there's a victim that didn't become a survivor. And so that is so extraordinary that you guys got that justice. That's what we wanted.

SPEAKER_06 49:31

We wanted to stop stop him hurting any other people. And that's I guess why I'm still just in some ways, I still am trying to do that.

SPEAKER_02 49:38

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 49:38

Like I see bad things happening, I see hugely bad men, and I'm like, that needs to stop.

SPEAKER_02 49:43

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 49:44

And it's not like revenge, and it's not like, you know, that's an evil person. I have, I'm upset. It's more just like, no, no, you're gonna stop hurting these women. Yes. It's mostly women that are getting hurt in the situations that I'm busy exposing currently.

SPEAKER_00 49:55

Yes, you know, so phenomenal. I'm so grateful that you exist, Mark. I don't know.

SPEAKER_06 49:59

I think I'm insane though, because I don't know. I just I don't think I can do this forever.

SPEAKER_00 50:02

It's an insane world, and you're doing something that is aga it's against the grain in in a heroic way, and that takes tremendous courage and fortitude. And I think that it is uh it is just incredibly admirable.

SPEAKER_06 50:17

And I wish there was more you've and I'm I wish there were more people as well because it's um it's it's rough.

SPEAKER_00 50:24

Yeah. I the fight's rough. It is, it is, it is. And I know that I mean, it's like I look at my life so far, and I and I know I would have designed it very differently, but I also know that you, you know, you get the hand you're dealt, and it's what you do with it. And I know that there's this, you know, very clear opportunity for me to alchemize the pain that I had to survive to help as many others as I possibly can.

SPEAKER_06 50:51

And the thing is, they don't realize this. They made us.

SPEAKER_00 50:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 50:54

We're sitting here, they made this happen.

SPEAKER_00 50:57

Yeah, that's so interesting.

SPEAKER_06 50:59

Bad stuff made us be like, okay, you know what? I gotta start talking.

SPEAKER_00 51:03

Yeah, yeah. You're right. Like, that's actually a really beautiful thing to think that. I mean, that's that's in

Light Is Stronger Than Darkness

SPEAKER_00 51:09

the Bible. That's like every weapon formed against you, um, like not only shall not prosper, but that you will use it to fight against the evil. Like that's that's that's a fundamental spiritual truth that essentially like light is stronger than darkness, no matter how like desperate and and hopeless it feels, ultimately, like the the arc of justice goes towards truth.

SPEAKER_06 51:31

Do you feel though, I I feel this thing, and I want to see what you think, that I feel like this is the age of exposure, and it's just gonna get more and more like stuff can't hide anymore.

SPEAKER_00 51:41

Absolutely. I completely I think I think the like the veil has sort of thinned to a point that people, people, you know, cult culturally, they are not willing to be deceived anymore. They're not willing to participate in their own deception. I mean, it's obviously when you're being directly targeted by a cult leader or narcissist, it's you know, a lot more um, it's a lot more difficult to kind of wake up to that. But I think culturally, people, you know, you even to see like since the pandemic, people, people don't want to just believe what they're being told. Like people, people are people are much more, I think, like, you know, distrusting of authority and government and and all of that stuff.

SPEAKER_06 52:21

2020 was my year, as I guess. Some bullshit going on.

SPEAKER_00 52:24

Yeah. So exactly. Yeah. And I think, um, I think the I like I I just see, you know, I have these unbelievably amazing survivor friends who I just, you know, I I adore with my whole heart. And um, you know, Crystal Harris and Courtney Stodd and Aubrey O'Day. And, you know, they they have survived some of the ultimate predators. And um, like, you know, I don't I don't even want to mention their names because the predators are not worth it mentioning, but um, but but they're they're now, you know, like coming, coming into this, uh like I I feel culturally and I feel socially that we're only at the very beginning of women who have been, you know, just decimated by these like narcissists and predators and and um uh it's it's been so abundant and culturally it's only just begun to be really un unveiled. Like even you know, Rose McGowan and these pioneers of of movements essentially that weren't happening 10 years or 20 years ago.

SPEAKER_06 53:23

And that's I think that's why one of the things I I think the film is important as well, you know, and I want people to see the film is is I think the film gives them a structure to see to see these things through. They go, but that's that that's we show the pattern of how it works. And so people can walk out of the theater and go, like, oh, there it is, there it is, there it is.

SPEAKER_00 53:41

Yes, you know, to have the glasses, the vision to see. Exactly. And give you and and I the narcissist is narcissist playbook, but I I like the Instagram is the narcissist playbook. But the answer is the narcissist playbook is going to be, and I just declare that, going to be the film that changes the culture around people understanding what narcissistic abuse actually is. And therefore, because it's it's so brilliantly done, it's going to be something that could be, you know, ex experts can direct it to, but also just friends, you know, like like babe, this is what you're dealing with. This is what and and they watch it and they're like, That's what we're hoping.

SPEAKER_06 54:18

Yes. That's what we're hoping. Yeah. And the other thing I want to say is shameless plug for the film. You know, we are survivor funded.

unknown 54:23

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 54:23

We have no studio behind us, you know, we have no streamer behind us. It's all survivors, they know, that have donated money. And we're still raising money as as we speak.

SPEAKER_02 54:30

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 54:31

Because we're going to do it direct-to-consumer. We're putting in theaters ourselves, we're doing everything ourselves, so they can't control anything.

SPEAKER_00 54:37

That's incredible. Because like I've seen you, you know,

Exposing Psychopathy

SPEAKER_00 54:40

talk about on your post that essentially, which I completely understand, the the big machine of Hollywood does not necessarily want to expose.

SPEAKER_04 54:48

They are not excited.

SPEAKER_00 54:49

The like, you know, um mechanics of narcissistic anything, because they are benefiting from the people's blindness to it. And I think that that like that is my hope is that, you know, we are at this precipice that once this information, you know, is out there in this way, like testimonies of survivors, different stories from different angles, and and it's so clear that this thing, it's not just, you know, I unfortunately, which I'm sure happens to every survivor. I've lost deeply important relationships to me since coming out and speaking publicly about surviving, which was, you know, in addition to everything, just so heartbreaking that these people who I believe fundamentally are really good people, they just don't understand. And therefore they think that, you know, I'm doing something wrong by becoming an advocate and talking about, you know, they say, like, you know, it's what happened in private happened in private. And and, you know, and and I'm and I can't explain. I just have, I know that, you know, this was not my choice of my calling. It's like, it's just been, you know, it's it's impossible it's impossible for me to not share what I've learned.

SPEAKER_06 55:58

I know, exactly. And the other thing, you know, that's what I'm hoping the film will be as well, is I know people, I know the survivors will see the film and be like, I need so-and-so to see this film because they'll understand what I've been talking about.

SPEAKER_00 56:07

Exactly.

SPEAKER_06 56:08

But here's the film, watch the film, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 56:11

Exactly. And anyone, you know, anyone who's unwilling to even just watch a film, like whatever that relationship is, no matter how painful it is to lose that, if you're going to actually heal from, you know, what we have to, you have to almost like commit, you have to commit to the truth above all else, above anything, because then the people, new people will come into your life that not only recognize, you know, like the courage that it's taken for you to survive what you have, but they will support you. You'll you'll be surrounded, you know.

SPEAKER_06 56:39

I mean, it's amazing we've gotten this far. And it's all because of survivors, you know. And we're still raising money. So please go to the website.

SPEAKER_00 56:44

Yes, please, please donate.

SPEAKER_06 56:46

Narcissistplaybook.com is the website.

SPEAKER_00 56:48

Narcissistplaybook.com. I'm so grateful to have had this chance to connect with you in person and thank you so much for making the time.

SPEAKER_06 56:56

Oh my god, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 56:58

It really means the world. And I can't wait for everyone to watch your film. And I can't wait for the narrative to change that people people immediately just recognize, like, oh yeah, I know about that. They like it's not this mystery anymore.

SPEAKER_03 57:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:12

And and please God that if you know someone is being ensnared, that they can recognize it before it gets to the decimation, before it gets to the, you know, years and years of absolute living hell. And then eventually yeah, it's it's we we we gotta change that culture because it's not okay.

SPEAKER_06 57:30

We do.

SPEAKER_00 57:30

Thank you so much, Mark.

SPEAKER_06 57:32

Thank you. I really appreciate it.